by Krysta Gibson 

(A group of interviewers from different publications, including New Spirit Journal, spoke with Marianne Williamson by phone December 16, 2010 about her book, 21 Day Spiritual Weight Loss Course. This is an edited version of that phone call.)

Unnamed Interviewer: I was wondering if you have always had a healthy outlook on relations with food.

Marianne Williamson: I had a time in my life starting when I was around 17 or 18 that lasted for about 10 years, when I was definitely a compulsive overeater. I remember that I used to come home from school in the afternoon and my mother had Eskimo Pies in the freezer. I remember allowing myself to have one everyday when I came home from school. That is the first memory I have. It’s funny that I didn’t talk about this in the book, because I did talk about my own body history. 

But in terms of my relationship to food, that's the first conscious memory of food as comfort. And then I did have as I -- as I talk about in the book, I was definitely a compulsive eater for about 10 years. It was a time when I couldn’t stop thinking about it. I couldn’t stop thinking about food, and that resulted in behavior that then resulted in an excess of anywhere from 15 to 20 pounds. I am only five foot two. This didn’t change until I had been working with the Course in Miracles for awhile. 

In the book I make a distinction between the compulsive over eater and addictive over eater. I was not a food addict, but I was definitely a compulsive overeater and it definitely effected my life.

Krysta Gibson: In the book you talk about God a lot, and refer to God as “Him.” I am sure you put a lot of thought into that before you did it. So can you talk about why you choose to address God as him?

Marianne Williamson: In the book is I refer to the “god of your understanding” that is used in Alcoholic Anonymous. I wrote a book called A Woman's Worth, back in the '90s that was all about the goddess. To me, goddess does not have a gender. In the eastern religions they talk about the yin and yang, and the feminine earth forces is referred to as yin, and the masculine sky or sprit forces is referred to as yang. Archetypally, we refer to the earth forces as the feminine, and the sky forces as masculine. 

It is a universal archetypally association of the earth that we call it Mother Earth. The earth is our mother. I never heard a man say “That is so sexist, why don’t we call it Father Earth?” It’s not a genital identification. So, for me personally even on that metaphysical level, I have no problem with the idea of the soul as feminine, receiving the impregnation of spirit.

I am a student of A Course in Miracles, and I teach the course. So I used the language of the course, and then as I said this -- this book is -- is also refers to alcoholic anonymous. So, I don’t know what else to do. I could call it, it? I could call it he or she. I think anybody who knows my work, knows that and I am not talking about a man with a long white beard sitting on a throne up in the sky somewhere. Beyond that, I could call it pure consciousness but I don’t want to actually. 

In my own experience it’s my own orientation to the creator. The divine is devotional, so I don’t have a problem with that. If I go to my friend and colleague Bob Thurman, and he gives a talk about Tibetan Buddhism, he wouldn’t serve me by changing the language. I am not a Tibetan Buddhist. But I understand the theme. I can do any translation I want to find by myself. And that's all I feel about my work. Somebody can do the translation for themselves. I am talking about a divine creator. If you have an addiction or a serious compulsion, you cannot fix this by yourself, that's the gist of this book. Only God can overwrite the compulsions. So I could say he or she but I think at a certain point I served my reader best by speaking from my own heart. 

Kris: In the book, you seem to be talking more to women. You refer to the reader as “her.” Do you see this more as a female issue?

Marianne Williamson: I do not and it’s funny because I have never seen my work as only for women. I don’t know where that got started. Women don’t assume that a Deepak Chopra book is only for men or that a Wayne Dyer book is only for men, because Deepak and Wayne are men. My book A Woman’s Worth, I think was poorly titled, because men thought it was only for women, when really was so much of that book was for men to read too. Much like the last question, when you asked why do you call god he? I called god he for the reasons I have said. But I do think that in our normal parlance, we refer too much to the masculine.

Like we will be talking about your wife left you. We could just as easily say your husband left you. This book as much as any other is not only for women. Even more to the point, obesity is in America is not just the problem for women. That is very clear just looking out at my audiences that's very clear. So the problem is not just for men or for women but for everyone.

Holly: You had said that only God can help override your compulsion whether that would be food or another kind of addiction. Can you reference the concepts in this book to teenagers who might still be unsure about their relationship with God? Would it be more about self-empowerment for them and how they can move through this?

Marianne Williamson: Speaking as a mother, from the time my daughter was a little girl, she heard references to God, God was part of our life. Children are very easy to talk to god about, because they haven't forgotten yet.

Unnamed Interviewer: We live in Sedona Arizona, so we have kind of an interesting spiritual community and I actually work with teams and programs and lot of the girls that I worked with have eating disorders.

Marianne Williamson: Number one, is a proper appreciation of the power of the darkness and that's what work like Debbie Ford’s The Shadow Effect is about. Let us not kid ourselves, there is a force in us that would lead to serious self sabotage and serious suffering in the world. And the other end of that equation is that there is also a power that is so much more than just nice - nice, that literally as they say in alcoholic anonymous, can do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. And I think that there are ways to introduce that to teens and children. 

But you know, Eckhart Tolle talks about pure consciousness, it’s the same thing. When he says that in a moment of pure consciousness all of things are made right, that's the same thing just said a different way. But I think introducing to kids in Sedona that this is actual force. It’s not just crystals and rainbows. It’s an actual force that can enter into your consciousness, enter into your brain, enter into your very nervous system and can actually change things for you. I think if you live in Sedona and you know these kids, you will know the words to use. You know, God himself would not have used the word God, if that word would break communication. 

Krysta: The exercises in the book are really phenomenal, and I was curious to know how you came up some of these different one where do they coming from?

Marianne Williamson: Oprah Winfrey was very involved with his book from its beginning and I remember the day that she called me and said “I want you to watch my show tomorrow. Geneen Roth is on. She wrote a book called Women, Food and God. You need to rewrite your book.” I had finished the book. Oprah said, “It’s too similar to hers, and what we need now is how to do it.” I had some exercises in my book, but this made me add more. 
With the exercises, I think I might have gone a little too far because one of the things that I have read in reviews of the book and comments about the book on Facebook etcetera, is that it’s hard. On one hand, that's a good thing because food is a real problem in your life. You can’t just talk about it all as nice and crystals and rainbows because the weight release you want is not going to occur. I just hope that the exercises are not so intense that people end up putting the book down.
Putting it down is fine, not going back to it, would made me sad.

Grace: That kind of fits into my one of my questions too because you - you mentioned it is – it’s hard to do this work. What you are calling people to do is self exploration or going into your self.

Marianne Williamson: Right.

Grace: And our society tends to do the outer work, you know, with all of the diet books out there. You are going more to the core of issue, which is really difficult. One of my questions is did you go through this kind of a process to heal your own food issues? And do you think people need a support system? Have you actually led some people through this process to see the results? 

Marianne Williamson: These are great questions. When you said people in our society tend to be directed to the outer work, I have two things to say to that. First, there are many diets and exercise programs out there many of which are absolutely wonderful and do work. That's not the problem. The problem is how often people loose weight on these diets and exercise programs, but then end up going back to the old pattern. Because the addictive forces are so embedded in their nervous system, it’s a subconscious ocean that they are just overwhelmed by. 

Number two, everybody on this call is a writer within a community of people who do know that it’s about the inner work. If somebody is reading my book and your newspaper or your magazine, they do have an understanding of the idea that it’s work that makes all of the difference. 

When I first started the Course in Miracles, I was 27 years old. I had so much misery in my life at that point that I wasn’t thinking of my issues with food and weight. It wasn’t an area where I was praying for a miracle. Rather, I just looked down one day and it was gone. It was just gone. I looked at my body and I looked the scale and said, “Wow, I haven't even thought about that. It just happened.”

I have been so happy with some of the Facebook messages where I have seen people saying “I don’t know. I am just eating different. I am not even trying.” So that was what happened to me. This whole book is about the wall that separated me from other people, and the Course has been training you to reach your hand across the wall. So, of course, the wall disappeared as did my issue with food. 

To help with the process we are going to have an entire website devoted to supporting people in this process. I know that at Renaissance Unity, in Warren, Michigan people are spontaneously forming groups. I have told people if there is a group of 10 or more people, I will do a private 30 minute tele-class with them

Unnamed Interviewer: I was thinking of starting a club for several of my friends that I know are really struggling with their mid-life crisis. They are having a lot of issues that they are coming into the new cycle of their body. I see them struggle with diet after diet and we come from very different spiritual backgrounds. Your work seems to bridge those gaps between belief systems. 

Marianne Williamson: Well, first of all you said you come from different spiritual background, I think sometimes those of us in the higher consciousness community think we are the only ones who get that basic concept. And that simply is not true. There’s nothing in this book that a Christian or a Jew wouldn’t relate to. And there is nothing that someone in therapy wouldn’t relate to. You can simply say “This book has meant a lot to and I wanted you to look at it.” You just never know where people are. You just never know, but if you speak your spiritual truth it makes sense.

Krysta: People come in different sizes and shapes. We have the fat acceptance groups these days and people say, “I am done with dieting and exercising. I am just going to accept myself.” In one of the chapters you talk about self-acceptance. How do these two ideas work together or do they?

Marianne Williamson: Have you ever looked at Queen Latifah?

Krysta Gibson: Yes.

Marianne Williamson: She is a big woman but she is toned and she looks healthy. You don’t have to be thin to be beautiful. But she looks like her body is healthy. She looks like her body is toned to me. And that’s what I am talking about. I am talking about your body being healthy. 

Some people who are carrying around 50 pounds and saying I need to just accept myself as I am because this is beautiful and this is perfect. The only question I would ask there is -- is that how your heart feels about it. Is that how your liver feels about it? Is that how your lungs feel about it. Is that how your stomach feels about it? That’s the thing. 

I understand that accepting yourself as you are is one of the steps in one’s journey and that step is included in this book because nothing changes until first it’s accepted as it is. And the basic core principle in the book is that if love is the answer then you can’t hate your body and expect a miracle. At the same time, we are coming to understand there are not a lot of fat 80-year-olds. You cannot carry 50 to 60 pounds and not start having physical problems with this as you age. Lets not kid ourselves. 

Do you know when my career began? When my first book came out. It was a lot very quickly. And I got self-protective and kept a wall of self-protection around with me. At that point it did not turn into food issues, but it turned into a rigidity in my personality, which is just another form that protection can take. So I built the wall to protect myself but it was in my personality instead of on my body. 

I don’t know if I put this in the book, the time when I met the spiritual teacher who looked at me and said “Rigid and distant isn’t working.” My job dropped. She knew me for only 15 minutes. You come to understand so much in life if you are on a journey of personal growth and spiritual seeking and self-discovery that everything we do is a choice. Every thought we think is a choice; every move we make is a choice. And I think the more we do the kind of exploration just like these lessons in the book and the more we do the kind of work such as the course of miracles or any other series spiritual journey we burn through things. We come to understand ourselves better. And then the next time that same situation comes up, we realize we can make another choice. In my case I realized I can be more available. 

And this absolutely applies to the weight loss journey because one of the chapters is called exiting the alone zone. You know, many times the people who are overweight have friends who say “I never see him eat too much. I never see her eat too much.” It’s called secret eating and a lot of people just go into their unwise, inappropriate eating when they are by themselves. It is absolutely a relationship with food that is a displaced relationship with God. And that displaced relationship with God takes two forms: our availability to other people and our availability to our own thoughts and feelings. 

We all go there in different ways. I mean none of us is without our issues. I say this in the book and I hope that it’s really heard by the reader. One of the reasons I have a lot of compassion for people dealing with this particular issue is the whole world knows you have this problem. That adds to the shame and adds to the humiliation. Everybody else has problems too, but they aren’t worn on the flesh. I want the person who reads this book to realize that you are not more messed up than other people are. This is just the form that this energy is taking in your life.

Kris: I think for women who have been sexually abused in order to get to a healthy eating pattern, they have to get to the core issues of the abuse. I think you said in your book 33% of women have been abused.

Marianne: Right and 33% are obese.

Kris: So, is it possible that some women would need professional help to get to their core issues?

Marianne Williamson: Yes, professional help can certainly be called for in some instance. But sometimes you just need to be able to describe your fears and be heard. That’s why I love Facebook. You know, on my Facebook page, I had many people say “I did that lesson and I just cried and cried and cried and cried.” If you were abused as a child, if you were sexually molested as a child and you are sitting down in your journal to write out your history, absolutely it is going to make you cry, suffer.

But our society needs to be less afraid of that. I am not against therapy; I am a very pro-therapy person. I am just saying that, in and of itself, having been abused doesn’t mean you need professional help. You need community. Just as in the 12 step programs, it is about community. And I say that in the book. I talk about doing this with other people. 

But I see that even on Facebook when people will say they cried and cried and cried. And then somebody else will put in what their experience was. I think it was Carl Young who said that all neurosis is a substitute for legitimate suffering. I think that’s so profound. Our society today has a very superficial attitude about happiness. Happy, happy, happy we all have to be happy, happy, happy. That’s why we have, in addition to the epidemic of overweight, we also have an epidemic of casual use of antidepressants. Somehow we’ve come to believe that a sad day is a bad thing. But even a happy life has a sad day. We fail to provide a context which says it’s okay to cry, it’s okay to be sad. So I think making the space for suffering is so important and making space for this expression of feelings in community. So if it means if a therapist or someone that’s great. But also you can get that just from someone who is going through it themselves.

I just want to thank all of you. I know you are writers yourselves. You know that when we are sitting at our computers or letter pads or typewriters we are hoping somebody is going to read this. That’s what the writer’s yearning is: that somebody will get value from this. And in this case my ability to do that is - is really dependant on your ability to do that. I just want you to know that I am grateful that you are writing about this book and letting people know that the book exists. I just want to say thank you very much for giving me this opportunity.